tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3089133433897831130.post7517143044281334525..comments2023-12-17T13:19:52.073+02:00Comments on Our Shiputzim: A Work In Progress: You just might be a Religious-ZionistMrs. S.http://www.blogger.com/profile/14649082640953110457noreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3089133433897831130.post-9254283389143738212010-01-12T23:09:25.707+02:002010-01-12T23:09:25.707+02:00Tiffany - Have you spoken to NBN?Tiffany - Have you spoken to NBN?Mrs. S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14649082640953110457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3089133433897831130.post-45896197446646705292010-01-12T23:01:50.236+02:002010-01-12T23:01:50.236+02:00Can someone provide a list of "Torani" ...Can someone provide a list of "Torani" or "Chardal" communities?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15770272062859853460noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3089133433897831130.post-51485525014392761432010-01-12T17:45:37.867+02:002010-01-12T17:45:37.867+02:00Anonymous (January 11, 2010 4:07 AM) - "Is &q...Anonymous (January 11, 2010 4:07 AM) - "<i>Is "regular" DL another way of saying MO-lite, and Torani is another way of saying serious MO?</i>"<br />Hmm. I'm very hesitant to say yes, because in many ways, DL isn't really synonymous with MO. And that's kind of the point of my post....<br /><br />Anonymous (January 11, 2010 2:06 PM) - Thanks for providing the link. I'm not sure I totally agree with everything she writes there - for instance, I don't think Chardal and Torani should be considered as two distinct categories - but overall, it's a great place to start.<br /><br />Tiffany - That's a tough question, but are Torani communities less affordable than other communities? IMHO, this is a problem across-the-board. Once a community - of any "flavor" - finds its way onto the Anglo map, the prices rise, and there are fewer houses/apartments available. In any event, best of luck with your search, and I hope you are able to find what you're looking for!Mrs. S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14649082640953110457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3089133433897831130.post-81689840614143826002010-01-11T22:42:26.086+02:002010-01-11T22:42:26.086+02:00I came across this blog when I googled "Toran...I came across this blog when I googled "Torani communities in Israel."<br />My question is: Where are the Torani communities that are AFFORDABLE? My husband and I just came back from a pilot trip where we visited "Torani" communities but they are unaffordable for us. Any suggestions for where else to look?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15770272062859853460noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3089133433897831130.post-71515687685248106452010-01-11T14:06:38.651+02:002010-01-11T14:06:38.651+02:00a helpful NbN page:
http://www.nbn.co.il/site/kb...a helpful NbN page: <br /><br />http://www.nbn.co.il/site/kb/questions/121/Choosing+a+School+and+Its+Religious+ApproachAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3089133433897831130.post-69809338929171459182010-01-11T04:07:02.243+02:002010-01-11T04:07:02.243+02:00Thanks to all for an illuminating thread. Re. the...Thanks to all for an illuminating thread. Re. the difference b/w Torani and "regular" DL--what is it? Is "regular" DL another way of saying MO-lite, and Torani is another way of saying serious MO?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3089133433897831130.post-62936049358271957292010-01-10T20:28:28.124+02:002010-01-10T20:28:28.124+02:00Jmminy - That's too bad that you haven't y...Jmminy - That's too bad that you haven't yet found a community which suits you. Without mentioning any names or disclosing any identifying details, can you explain how these communities don't "<i>match the standards</i>" I cited? Also, are these Torani/Chardal communities or "regular" dati-leumi communities?Mrs. S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14649082640953110457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3089133433897831130.post-44691910177224996752010-01-10T08:33:50.066+02:002010-01-10T08:33:50.066+02:00Unfortunately, I think your post is useless withou...Unfortunately, I think your post is useless without a list of the Torani communities you are referring to. I have now lived in 2 which would probably be at the top of your list and have not found them to match the standards that you describe.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17879030749325672456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3089133433897831130.post-86050405094952921892009-12-31T16:36:12.375+02:002009-12-31T16:36:12.375+02:00Rachel - Sounds like you found a community which r...Rachel - Sounds like you found a community which really fits your needs!Mrs. S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14649082640953110457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3089133433897831130.post-30470967426814460582009-12-30T20:23:50.872+02:002009-12-30T20:23:50.872+02:00yepp we are in rbsa and would happily describe our...yepp we are in rbsa and would happily describe ourselves (now) as Torani.Rachelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10006477385560302312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3089133433897831130.post-78156261721087976762009-12-29T17:48:53.871+02:002009-12-29T17:48:53.871+02:00Anonymous (December 29, 2009 4:36 AM) - "For ...Anonymous (December 29, 2009 4:36 AM) - "<i>For the sake of those considering aliyah, can you specify a list of communities that you feel have a vibrant Torani community/school?</i>"<br />As I noted in my post, they can be found all across the country. There are Torani moshavim and yishuvim, Torani neighborhoods in many cities, and Torani kehillot. Some of the trappings of Torani communities include schools like Mamlachti Dati Torani schools and/or semi-private schools like Noam and others and also youth groups like Ariel and/or non-mixed Bnei Akiva chapters.<br /><br />Akiva - Good point. We have a number of Torani friends and relatives who happily live and send their kids to school in RBS.Mrs. S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14649082640953110457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3089133433897831130.post-34664323671028790062009-12-29T14:12:09.923+02:002009-12-29T14:12:09.923+02:00To the someone who asked about a community with To...To the someone who asked about a community with Torani / Chardal schools...an unusual choice is Ramat Beit Shemesh. They have charedi schools (Litvish, Chassidish, and standard Beit Yaakov types), an "American style" yeshiva, and a Chardal system.<br /><br />While personally on the charedi side of the spectrum my children are attending the Chardal schools - where the education is much more professional than most of the other systems.<br /><br />They do push the zionist stuff a bit, but our home and neighborhood offsets it just fine to keep a reasonable balance.<br /><br />On a side note, my charedi neighbors son is in Netzach Yehuda (the charedi combat battalion), and my daughter(!) opted out of army avoidance and sherut leumi and is in the IDF Air Force. Neither are a product of Chardal in Israel, both of the black hat yeshiva systems in the US.Akivahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13042484533217272945noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3089133433897831130.post-12229046386274355622009-12-29T10:57:05.586+02:002009-12-29T10:57:05.586+02:00Anonymous -
Yes, there are many Americans that fa...Anonymous - <br />Yes, there are many Americans that fall completely into the charedi mold. On the other hand, I personally know many who made aliyah and live in charedi areas, but whose hashkafot aren't totally in line with the neighborhoods which they live in. <br />The point of the post was not anti-charedi at all. The writer's idea was just to point out that there is a large group of people who make decisions based on dress and that if they would look past the clothes, they might find that there are communities where the general population's hashkafas more closely match their own.<br /><br />Since you are making public comments about specific psaks from a number of gedolim, I assume that you can back those comments up with specific sources. Please post specific sources instead of just a list of names.<br /><br />As far as "zionist ideals"- in my neighborhood there are those that don't say hallel on Yom Ha'atzmaut, those that say it without a bracha and those that say it with a bracha. There are those that learn full time, and those that work and also set aside time for learning each day. There are those that wear black hats and those that wear kippot srugot. They all live happily together and everyone respects each other. All are torah observant and all of klal yisroel should be proud of all of them.YZGnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3089133433897831130.post-77968912523910093092009-12-29T08:57:52.619+02:002009-12-29T08:57:52.619+02:00I imagine you mean Rav Shachs grandson served in t...I imagine you mean Rav Shachs grandson served in the army. He is off the derech to the best of my knowledge, and Rav Shach, though he didnt disown his son, was not happy with him. He didnt even speak at Rav Shachs levaya. The CI did not have any children<br /><br />Sheirut Leumi is yehareg v'al yaavor. Look into before you tell me I made this up. I dont think I could have thought of if I wanted to. The psak came from all the rabbonim of the time, led by the CI, and including Rav Tzvi Pesach Frank among others that I am sure you heard of. Look into it. <br /><br />Again, its not the black hat, its the underlying rejection of the zionist ideals which prevents an American with chareidi leanings to stay out of the DL world. Sorry to burst your bubbleAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3089133433897831130.post-66648663969957933652009-12-29T04:36:39.287+02:002009-12-29T04:36:39.287+02:00If only I hadn't allowed my spouse to believe ...If only I hadn't allowed my spouse to believe the no communities/schools myth while my children were still young...<br /><br />For the sake of those considering aliyah, can you specify a list of communities that you feel have a vibrant Torani community/school?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3089133433897831130.post-85091632516308977802009-12-29T00:34:25.197+02:002009-12-29T00:34:25.197+02:00Anonymous- This post didn't have anything anti...Anonymous- This post didn't have anything anti-Charedi about it. The point, which you obviously missed, is that there are many Americans who aren't really charedi and whose hashkafot aren't really charedi, but who think that they belong in a charedi community just because they wear a black hat in the U.S.<br /><br />I am not going to respond to the specifics of your other comments other than to say that the Chazon Ish's grandson served in the army and he used to walk into Ponnovitch wearing his uniform.<br />Can you give me specific sources for the "psaks" that you quote. I have a feeling that your conclusions don't exactly match what the original sources say.YZGnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3089133433897831130.post-53210515447618921182009-12-29T00:02:34.493+02:002009-12-29T00:02:34.493+02:00Wow your post is just overflowing with both ahavas...Wow your post is just overflowing with both ahavas yisroel and understanding of chareidi hashkagos.<br /><br />Ahavas yisroel, I will let you deal with it. Just remember that if a chareidi said these types of things about your DL world, you'd accuse him of being a racist soneh yisroel.<br /><br />Regarding the reason many chareidim in america would not consider a "torani" community - the MAIN reason is that they think your hashkafos are PASUL - not kosher - not a viable option. No matter how much you are kove'a itim, no matter how many hair coverings you wear, no matter how meticulous you are - the underlying hashkafos are treif. <br /><br />Examples?<br />Army is assur.<br />Sheirut Le'umi is yehareg v'al yaavor. <br />The list goes on and on, but I dont have the time for it. <br /><br />But understand this. Its not because you dont wear a tie at your bar mitzvah. Its because the gedolei yisroel - starting with the CC and continuing with the CI, the Rov, Rav Shach, the Steipler et al - have ruled that tzinout is wrong. Period.<br /><br />That and that alone precludes a chareidi leaning individual from joining your community.<br /><br /><br /><br />Now, I am not here to pick sides. If you have your rabbonim and manhigim that you follow thats great. But dont be all self richeous about how chareidim are so dumb that the only reason that dont make aliyah and become a tziyoni is ..... when there is a real reason - even if you dont like itAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3089133433897831130.post-72918569945538924682009-12-28T23:07:19.223+02:002009-12-28T23:07:19.223+02:00Not Defined - I agree with you that one must choos...Not Defined - I agree with you that one must choose between being Chareidi and being Dati-Leumi. (As I noted above, I believe that if they really want to and are very determined, adults can more or less avoid this issue. But it's nearly impossible for one's kids to do so.) However, if one is willing to cross the Rubicon and define oneself as Dati-Leumi, I would argue that there's no further polarization. Perhaps it exists on the Chareidi side of the divide, but I really don't see it in the Dati-Leumi world in general and the Torani communities in particular.<br /><br />Chanoch - Thanks, and good question. Perhaps NBN has this information?Mrs. S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14649082640953110457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3089133433897831130.post-65453725362835364722009-12-28T22:49:12.217+02:002009-12-28T22:49:12.217+02:00Great article - very well said.
So where does one...Great article - very well said. <br />So where does one get a "list" of these Torani Communities?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06311373902767964679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3089133433897831130.post-26442829793478088482009-12-28T19:41:07.148+02:002009-12-28T19:41:07.148+02:00While the point about black hats is correct(I left...While the point about black hats is correct(I left my hat in the States), the point about polarization is also true. In the US communities are more heterogeneous so you aren't forced to stuff yourself into a particular box. In Israel you can find many wonderful communities - but you are forced to clearly define yourself first - even if you are an mix of different ideas.Not Definednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3089133433897831130.post-63256353424829360732009-12-27T16:15:10.825+02:002009-12-27T16:15:10.825+02:00Rachel - Nice to "meet" you! We also wen...Rachel - Nice to "meet" you! We also went through a period of adjustment, and of course, in some respects, we're STILL adjusting (especially as the kids get older BA"H). Growing up in the States, one has many preconceived notions, and not all of them are relevant or apply to Israeli life.<br /><br />Yeshoua - Thanks. I look forward to reading your response.Mrs. S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14649082640953110457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3089133433897831130.post-62566893453462335912009-12-27T12:57:56.141+02:002009-12-27T12:57:56.141+02:00Don't concern your self that people say this i...Don't concern your self that people say this is the reason they don't make aliyah. I received some of the same comments. Certain people look to justify why they do not come. Keep up the good work. I will write a response in detail and post it by Lifeinisrael.blogspot.com<br />Kol tuv,<br /><br />YeshouaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3089133433897831130.post-7319279142892802482009-12-25T00:37:37.091+02:002009-12-25T00:37:37.091+02:00Ehwhy's wife here (long time reader, first tim...Ehwhy's wife here (long time reader, first time commenter- I sent him the post this morning) b'H we have planted ourselves in a good group of people since we arrived that has allowed us to grow and thrive. There was some adjustment from what we felt like was "expected " back to home to "normal" now- and it is a line we are still trying to clarify. It will be a continuing battle for us and our daughter, but one we feels is a worthwhile one to push.Rachelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10006477385560302312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3089133433897831130.post-55395289087201995962009-12-24T22:48:54.980+02:002009-12-24T22:48:54.980+02:00EhWhy - Thanks for your kind words. Also, it's...EhWhy - Thanks for your kind words. Also, it's nice to hear about people who manage to straddle the line. But, as I'm sure you know, that only works for adults. Kids have a much harder time...<br /><br />Batya - IMHO, it's not easy to change one's ingrained way of thinking. Thus, when one has been raised to think that being frum is equivalent to wearing a black hat, it's hard to go against that...<br /><br />Ilana-Davita - Thanks for illustrating my point! B"H, there are so many different kinds of communities in Israel that it bothers me when people say they can't find a community which would suit them. This post was my way of trying to understand this phenomenon.Mrs. S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14649082640953110457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3089133433897831130.post-33284385589910638642009-12-24T19:58:49.740+02:002009-12-24T19:58:49.740+02:00I think I'd also like the inclusive aspect of ...I think I'd also like the inclusive aspect of the community.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com